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TobyThu Aug-12-04 05:56 AM
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#53, "Vanishing"


          

I've been wondering recently about how people simply vanish from our lives and how we vanish from other peoples' lives--all this vanishing while we're still alive. So far I've thought of two reasons.

There is the pace of modern living which makes intimacy difficult in spite of emailing; we just can't, we feel, spend or take the time it takes to grow a relationship. More recently I've thought we vanish from each other's lives when we can no longer be playful together. Put another way, our games have become finite (winners and losers) -- as if we have lost touch with a playfulness which is infinite, where the goal of the play is to just keep on playing and where we change the rules to make this happen.

Watchya think?

  

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Replies to this topic
RE: Vanishing, Toby, Aug 12th 2004, #1
RE: Vanishing, dbelt, Aug 26th 2004, #2
RE: Vanishing, PThompson, Aug 26th 2004, #3
RE: Vanishing, Toby, Sep 03rd 2004, #4
RE: Vanishing, janns411, Nov 15th 2004, #5
RE: Vanishing, patrickj, Nov 16th 2004, #6
RE: Vanishing, Toby, Nov 16th 2004, #7
RE: Vanishing, jean, Nov 18th 2004, #8
RE: Vanishing, Toby, Nov 21st 2004, #11
RE: Vanishing, Hermitess, Nov 18th 2004, #9
RE: Vanishing, patrickj, Nov 19th 2004, #10
RE: Vanishing, Una, Nov 23rd 2004, #12
RE: Vanishing, Toby, Nov 24th 2004, #13
      RE: Vanishing, Una, Nov 27th 2004, #14
           RE: Vanishing, Toby, Nov 27th 2004, #15
                RE: Vanishing, Lara, Nov 30th 2004, #16
                     RE: Vanishing, patrickj, Dec 01st 2004, #17
                          RE: Vanishing, jean, Dec 02nd 2004, #18
                               RE: Vanishing, jean, Dec 02nd 2004, #19
                                    RE: Vanishing, Toby, Jan 04th 2005, #20
RE: Vanishing, Sheila, Apr 07th 2005, #21
RE: Vanishing, Toby, Apr 09th 2005, #22
      RE: Vanishing, Sheila, Apr 09th 2005, #23
           RE: Vanishing, Toby, Apr 10th 2005, #24
                RE: Vanishing, Sheila, Apr 10th 2005, #25
                     RE: Vanishing, Toby, Apr 11th 2005, #26
                          RE: Vanishing, Sheila, Apr 11th 2005, #27

TobyThu Aug-12-04 01:22 PM
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#54, "RE: Vanishing"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Of course, some people vanish from our lives because of our actions toward them-- which we may not even know about, but which have hurt or insulted them.

  

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dbeltThu Aug-26-04 12:54 AM
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#64, "RE: Vanishing"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I believe that people come in and out of our lives because they're meant to teach us certain lessons. When people vanish, it can be because their role was simply to plant a seed, which will grow over time as our awareness evolves.

I've moved 10 times in the last 15 years including Tokyo, London twice, Holland, TX and PA. Oh, and NC, where we live now. I used to think that leaving equated to vanishing, but I've found that even when I haven't heard from someone in years, I'll suddenly get a message that they're coming to visit. I'm moved by the fact that friendship is not dependent on regular communication.

I take great comfort in the fact that friends are like energy. There's no loss or destruction, even as forms change. They'll always be our friends, simply because we've exchanged the gift of our spirits.

Donna

  

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PThompsonThu Aug-26-04 11:58 PM
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#67, "RE: Vanishing"
In response to Reply # 0


          

T-

Well, I'm reacting to another interpretation of a friend's vanishing - because of death. A friend died this week and I just can't get my head around the fact that I won't see him again. It continues to be a surprise for me many times a day. It changes perspective of course, the fact that someone's in your life and then just gone makes me look around at who's still here in this musical chairs game. So when it's not a vanishing out of choice or apathy or just being busy, it sure the hell is final. Nothing enlightening here I guess, just some thoughts ...

-P

  

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TobyFri Sep-03-04 07:49 AM
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#70, "RE: Vanishing"
In response to Reply # 3


          

Perhaps not enlightening but surely poetic:

". . . this musical chairs game . . . "

" . . . it sure the hell is final."


  

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janns411Mon Nov-15-04 09:52 AM
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#80, "RE: Vanishing"
In response to Reply # 0


          

This question stays with me especially since I have grown more solitary in the last few years in many ways. I ran into this today from John Dunne's book, The Reasons of the Heart, A Journey into Solitude and Back into the Human Circle: "To be loved means to be consumed," Rilke says, "to love is to give light with inexhaustible oil. To be loved is to pass away, to love is to endure." As long as he lives in the excitement of understanding and loving, he will give light with inexhaustible oil, he will endure. If he once turns toward being understood and being loved, he fears, he will begin to be consumed, he will begin to pass away."

and later...

... Actually a person's story can be told in different ways, with different degrees of inwardness, the most inward being that of the spiritual adventure. In its least inward form it is the story of what happens to him, of the things and situations of his life. In a somewhat more inward form it is the story of the choices he makes, how he relates to things and situations. In a still more inward form it is the story of what he says, or better, of what he has to say, the story of his message, of what he has to communicate to others, his insight into his experience. In its most inward form, as that of a spiritual adventure, it is the story of the meaning he embodies in his life and death, the story of what he incarnates.

Telling the story of what has happened to him, our solitary man would have to tell how in pursuing the fulfillment of his deepest needs, his longing for communion on the deepest level of his life, he has let his other needs, especially his longing for simple human intimacy, go unfulfilled."

Is Dunne saying that it is possible that in our search for that deeper communion we might slip into and get caught by a spiritual adventure that somehow takes us away from our simple human needs of our communion with one another. Is it possible that many of us have stayed too long in the inner sphere (acted out in our neighborhoodless society), perhaps fueled by a disappointment for not sustaining the ecstacy of Love.

My take on all of this relates back to what you are saying about playing together. What do I mean by playing together? Giving and receiving out of the fullness of who we are. Risking the disappointment by allowing myself to be carried into communication with another without expectations of you fulfilling my spiritual needs. And this requires, I see now, time for that sacred communion with Other (PW) and back Out again.

My first Write in the introductory course showed me how I vanish from myself by how it is that I return. And it is no wonder that I vanish from others if I am not also at home.

Jann Patrice

  

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patrickjTue Nov-16-04 06:17 AM
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#81, "RE: Vanishing"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Toby, it's been very enlightening to think about relationships I've had that have ended, in the way you're talking about it here. It takes the blame out of relationships I've been in that have ended, whether it was me doing the vanishing, or the other. And a useful way to describe the feeling of suffocation, on the one hand (the one vanishing) and fear on the other, fear of the infinite.

Joan

  

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TobyTue Nov-16-04 03:16 PM
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#82, "RE: Vanishing"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I've just re-read all the messages in this thread. So many wise and interesting things said. Any thoughts on a felt-sense that this is the (historical?) moment for more worldly manifestation? finding one's truer work? being less caught up in our vanishing modes? More present ot ourselves and so to others?

  

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jeanThu Nov-18-04 02:03 AM
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#87, "RE: Vanishing"
In response to Reply # 7


          

I have some idea what it means to be more present to ourselves. As for "And so to others" (the "and so").... and "more present to others".... if Toby or anyone else can say even the smallest bit more about what s/he means by that, I'd be interested.

And what about being able to experience the presence of another? Is this just part and parcel of being ourselves more present? I'm thinking of a friend whose reaction to imminent experience (?) is to whip out a recording device, a camera, VCR, whatever. And my own (hopefully distant, minor) participation in the dehumanization of others--as in conversations where, even if I am listening more than speaking, I might never feel "oh, you're here too." The only paradises are lost/vanished (or recorded or mediated) paradises? Maybe I didn't at first, just now, hear Toby's careful use of comparatives in his questions: "more," "truer," "less".

  

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TobySun Nov-21-04 02:47 PM
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#90, "RE: Vanishing"
In response to Reply # 8
Sun Nov-21-04 03:01 PMby Toby

          

Maybe I'm making a false assumption, that the more and more often I experience myself as a subject, the more completely I can imagine another's (your) subjectivity. I feel this truth when it seems like you and I could be playmates-- there are fewer ego ploys in operation.
Less ego, less paranoia-- more presence to onself.

  

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HermitessThu Nov-18-04 02:29 AM
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#88, "RE: Vanishing"
In response to Reply # 7


          

Interesting thought here. I think as we get older, we get more reflective and look move deeply within. My best moments are alone. I know that as I've gotten older, I've had to become more selective with friends, with what I do, how I spend my time and what I want with life.
I live in the country surrounded by hills, woods and farms. My joy each morning is to sit in the dining room and look out across fields, stream and farms and reflect on the nature and undisturbed beauty I see. This insulates me from the harshness of the world. I've intentionally let go of many things and people. A conscious choice. And this is not to say that I don't nurture friendships and family. To the contrary. But I do think we start to let some people vanish in our life. I have come to relish my aloneness and the time to rummage in places I have long set aside.
I just finished a book by Karen Armstrong, "The Spiral Staircase." I think I like her definition of spirituality. The grace with which one handles the practice of life. In short....how I treat you. The everyday acts of care and respect. Differences there will always be. The art is, can be walk away smiling and live without fear and worry.
Several months ago as I was writing, movement caught my eye. A doe was trying to cajole a faun to cross the stream. Everytime the doe got her little one to step into the stream, she'd turn and prance out. This went on for two hours. I remember feeling so content with life. It was one of those moments that registers with the soul. And then I thought about the Iraqi women suffering the loss of pain and death. Certainly a retorical question, but how could one woman feel such joy and contentment while another feels nothing but grief and pain. All because of differences and not understanding one another. Mary

  

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patrickjFri Nov-19-04 04:11 AM
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#89, "RE: Vanishing"
In response to Reply # 7


          

How can I be more present to myself with others, is my question. When being present to myself is such a chore. I mean a full time job. I doubt I'll ever do enough writes to accomplish that. Being present to myself, would BE being present to others, wouldn't it?

I tried, for many years, living in a rural setting more isolated from others, but I eventually realized that, for me, "nature" is not enough to come up against in order to become present to myself (now it's a place to occasionally recover from the stings and arrows). Ergo, others are necessary--but how f..... painful, how wrenching it is to come up against myself with them. And if it's a situation where I'm coming up against myself with others around work I am trying to do, how much more so--though it occurs to me now, at least around the work, that task could be, ultimately, a less trying way to go, because the work is something I can grasp, less slippery, than who-I-am-with-you. The work is a "thing" to work with, that maybe it's possible (though not at all easy) to distinquish from my self? A way to consciousness, without what seems to always become major psychic surgery of self-inspection--or is it self-meddling? No wonder I'm so testy.

I had a lot of dreams about hiding last night (vanishing?), then this forum opportunity presented itself......

Joan

ps this seemed a bit like having a mini-write 'on the air,' and I wonder worry about using the forum this way....

  

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UnaTue Nov-23-04 11:52 AM
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#94, "RE: Vanishing"
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Nov-23-04 11:58 AMby Una

          

As the old musician/ magician says

" you have to appear or you disappear"

or was it

"you have to appear before you disappear" ?

1ng

  

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TobyWed Nov-24-04 09:53 AM
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#96, "RE: Vanishing"
In response to Reply # 12


          

A few wonderings: like do we need to have a strong ego before we can transcend it, whatever it is?

Do we particularize out of the cosmic wave of potentiality, and then vanish back into the wave? If so, when and how?

And what about that most of all magical children's game, "Peek-a-Boo?"

  

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UnaSat Nov-27-04 06:33 AM
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#99, "RE: Vanishing"
In response to Reply # 13


          


Well, your pithy play gym certainly engaged my thinker ! I have watched my mind realize once again that it can never fathom the big stuff and relax into the wonder . Below are some quotes from the Irish poet/scholar John O’Donohue who has much to say on the theme of absence/presence in his book ‘Eternal Echoes’.

“Absence is such a powerful theme because such a vast quantity of our identity lies out of reach in (the) unknown and largely unknowable region (of our subconscious)”

“ There is also a whole region of the absent which embraces not the vanished but that which has not yet arrived.... events, persons, thoughts and novelties ahead which have not yet arrived. This is the territory of the unknown.”

“Much of our thinking endeavors to invite the unknown to disclose itself. This is especially true of questions. The question is the place where the unknown becomes articulate and active in us. The question is impatient with the unrevealed. It reaches forward to open doors in the unknown. The question attempts to persuade absence to yield its concealed presences.”

  

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TobySat Nov-27-04 11:15 AM
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#100, "RE: Vanishing"
In response to Reply # 14


          

Wonderful quotes--nice fit with the idea that we can't know what anything is. One reason we form the PQ the way we do. Not what is, but what do I mean by.

  

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LaraTue Nov-30-04 01:53 PM
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#101, "RE: Vanishing"
In response to Reply # 15


          

After reading from the beginning on this subject, I'm reminded of the idea that nothing can be created without something else being destroyed and I wonder if the converse is also true. A building can not be demolished without creating a big pile of rubble. But does this hold true in the non-physical world?

There is something about choices here-conscious or not. If I choose one thing I am destroying the possibility of something else. If someone has vanished from my life, where are they? This goes back to peek-a-boo and the developmental stage of Object-Permanence (I forget who calls it that) where a child learns that things still exist even if they can't be seen. If a friend is out of my life for a period of time is s/he still my friend? For me, this comes down to how good I feel about myself that day and how I interpret our last meetings. "Why did my friend leave me?" or "Why did I leave my friend?" can get tangled up in previously unrelated stories I tell myself about what a terrible person I am.

But what about the self? A few people wrote about vanishing from oneself and I feel like I understand that state of being, but now I'm wondering about peek-a-boo. If I can't see/feel myself, where am I? By destroying my sense of myself, what did I create? My intuition tells me that by thinking about it this way will keep me from vanishing as much. But doesn't it feel wonderful to have been vanished and then return to yourself? Isn't coming home to yourself as purely joyful as a child playing peek-a-boo?

And isn't it wonderful when someone you haven't seen in a long time suddenly comes back into view.



  

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patrickjWed Dec-01-04 07:05 AM
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#102, "RE: Vanishing"
In response to Reply # 16


          

> If I can't see/feel myself, where am I? By destroying my sense of >myself, what did I create? My intuition tells me that by thinking >about it this way will keep me from vanishing as much.

>But doesn't it feel
>wonderful to have been vanished and then return to yourself?
>Isn't coming home to yourself as purely joyful as a child
>playing peek-a-boo?


Lovely thoughts, these...
And useful to help me recall that something is created--if nothing else--a sense of space, which can be something.

>And isn't it wonderful when someone you haven't seen in a long
>time suddenly comes back into view.

Maybe not, unless it's wonder-ful in the sense of a chance to revisit whatever was so difficult, with new eyesight.

Joan

  

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jeanThu Dec-02-04 01:39 AM
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#103, "RE: Vanishing"
In response to Reply # 17


          

I love the shift from absence to destruction. Destruction could be seen as the hidden history of absence, perhaps, or one of the hidden histories. I am remembering critiques of "sentimentality" that showed up in literary criticism for a while, be it sentimental depictions of the poor or nostalgia for something past (something constructed as "the past" through writing or art). There is safety, relief, perhaps violence, in the distance from which we feel pity, sweet sadness of empathy, whatever.

  

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jeanThu Dec-02-04 01:52 AM
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#104, "RE: Vanishing"
In response to Reply # 18


          

On the peekaboo question. I think I dared mention Freud's fort-da game a while ago (paranoia of ego: my post has vanished). Discussion of peekaboo revives that. Part of that game in which the child enjoys repeatedly throwing an object out of his crib on a string and pulling it back in is about mastering absence--ego-building, I'm sure. And fort-da has been taken as a kind of rudimentary act of representation ("re-presentation" as it was always written for a while in lit theory).

Absence is a precondition of language. Language is always a sign of absence. These are vague generalizations and Joan's recognition of "space" is much more accessible and immediate and workable. But they could be related.

By contrast to the toy on a string: the reappearance of someone, their popping back into my life, often feels like a gift, (a "present"), a boon, grace, maybe because/when I've given up anxious expectancy, entitlement, or (a mistitled) hope. This giving up may be my glimpse of what it could be like more of the time, if I could let go of that string (of projection? of a depressive's refusal to lose and mourn?) more of the time.

On the other hand, sometimes such a reappearance feels like an assuaging of a pain I wasn't aware of having. I become aware I had been missing the person. Their absence seems now to have been contributing to a homogeneous, featureless cloud of depression or anxiety.I'm not sure there's anything to be learned from this phenomenon. If I were more present and mindful sooner, I wouldn't get the "gift." But isn't this almost superstitious, magical thinking? What if they didn't reappear but died instead?

  

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TobyTue Jan-04-05 12:27 PM
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#109, "RE: Vanishing"
In response to Reply # 19


          

A further thought on "vanishing" via a stanza from "Oh," a poem by C.K. Williams discussed by Ira Sadoff in the most recent ed. of American Poetry Review. The poet is talking about his dead friend, the poet Harold Brodkey:

But no, leave it alone. Harold's gone, truly
gone, and isn't it unforgiveable, vile,
to stop loving someone, or to stop being loved;
we don't mean to lose friends,
but someone drifts off, and we let them, or they
renounce us, or we them, or we're hurt,
like flowers, for god's sake, when really we're
prideful brutes, as blunt as icebergs.

T.

  

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SheilaThu Apr-07-05 09:16 AM
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#110, "RE: Vanishing"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I think, Toby, that we have not lost touch with our playfulness. But we have let fear get in the way. When we set the fear aside, and we can, we can play forever. This infinite game is what keeps us pulsing with life and longing.

S Redd

  

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TobySat Apr-09-05 04:32 AM
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#111, "RE: Vanishing"
In response to Reply # 21


          

Sheila--

I agree! Maybe the reason the child is a symbol of spirituality is because it is all about play--even unifies play with its basic human nature, to learn. How do you set the fear aside? T.

  

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SheilaSat Apr-09-05 05:29 AM
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#112, "RE: Vanishing"
In response to Reply # 22


          

Like a child, you go toward the pleasure and the play leaving the fear behind for a while. I think it comes naturally for a child but as adults we must learn the childhood trick of putting our fear aside so we can play. It's something akin to taking a deep breath and diving in and trusting that you will burst through the surface gulping for air. Then you play.

S Redd

  

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TobySun Apr-10-05 09:00 AM
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#113, "RE: Vanishing"
In response to Reply # 23


          

It's this trusting, then?

  

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SheilaSun Apr-10-05 12:25 PM
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#114, "RE: Vanishing"
In response to Reply # 24


          

Yes, this is trusting. Trusting the game. Trusting the players. Trusting yourself. Without it you can't play. You become too burdened with doubt.
Do you remember your response to being invited to play a game with your peers as a child? The response was joy and glee and the game began. As adults we think things to death. Why does she want to play with me? What If I'm not good at the game? Are there ulterior motives? Can I afford this emotionally? Will it take a toll on me? Will I like it too much? Will I be disappointed? And it goes on and on. And all the mind games destroy the playfulness. The playfulness is joy. We grown-ups have to learn to re-capture it. Or else, no more fun. And that would be sad. Don't you think?

S Redd

  

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TobyMon Apr-11-05 02:29 PM
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#115, "RE: Vanishing"
In response to Reply # 25


          

So, dear Sheila,
is PW
an infinite
game?

  

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SheilaMon Apr-11-05 05:13 PM
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#116, "RE: Vanishing"
In response to Reply # 26


          

Why, yes,
dear Toby.
But,
surely,
you knew.
Are you playing
with me?
Oh, goody!

S Redd

  

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