Maybe if we just continue our conversation more folks will join us. I'm finishing work now with a person who will be here soon. Just one note on poetry. When I teach From PW to Poetry, I always start with the Write, and help students locate the "heat" of the Write, that thought or image or metaphor that carries the most emotional information. That begins an associative prorcess that eventually leads to a draft, or a poem, or some interesting fragments--but it all begin with emotion/the heart